Richard Dawkins overturned millennia of religious superstition by proving that man was formed from dust. He is also famous for speculating that God most probably doesn’t exist. To Dawkins, the dust just happened to form into man, with no involvement from God. It’s as if the dust gave us birth!
When Israel and Judah turned away from God and began worshiping idols, God sent the prophet Jeremiah to warn them of the impending destruction of Jerusalem and captivity in Babylon. Jeremiah chapter 2 lays out God’s complaint against his chosen people. Here are verses 26-28:
“As a thief is disgraced when he is caught,
so the house of Israel is disgraced—
they, their kings and their officials,
their priests and their prophets.They say to wood, ‘You are my father,’
and to stone, ‘You gave me birth.’
They have turned their backs to me
and not their faces;
yet when they are in trouble, they say,
‘Come and save us!’Where then are the gods you made for yourselves?
Let them come if they can save you
when you are in trouble!
For you have as many gods
as you have towns, O Judah.
As crazy as it is, we live in a world where people say to the dust, “You gave me birth!” But would anyone be crazy enough to cry out to dust or stone for rescue? Rocks cannot see or hear or walk! Revelation 6:15-17 says:
Then the kings of the earth, the princes, the generals, the rich, the mighty, and every slave and every free man hid in caves and among the rocks of the mountains. They called to the mountains and the rocks, “Fall on us and hide us from the face of him who sits on the throne and from the wrath of the Lamb! For the great day of their wrath has come, and who can stand?”
Some atheists find comfort in the belief that there is no afterlife. All atheists find comfort in the belief that there is no wrathful face of God awaiting them. Instead of facing a wrathful God, they would prefer to have the rocks fall on them and hide them from His wrath. Revelation 9:6 says:
During those days men will seek death, but will not find it; they will long to die, but death will elude them.
It’s forgivable for Dawkins to believe that the dust gave him birth, but he would surely change his mind when faced with such strong punishment, right? I wouldn’t be so sure. Revelation 9:20:
The rest of mankind that were not killed by these plagues still did not repent of the work of their hands; they did not stop worshiping demons, and idols of gold, silver, bronze, stone and wood—idols that cannot see or hear or walk.
Do you really want to say to the dust, “You gave me birth”?
Jeremiah is beautiful poetry. I have said before that Psalm 13 is my favorite Psalm. Jeremiah references this Psalm, in Jeremiah 3:1-5, right after condemning Israel and Judah:
“If a man divorces his wife
and she leaves him and marries another man,
should he return to her again?
Would not the land be completely defiled?
But you have lived as a prostitute with many lovers—
would you now return to me?”
declares the LORD.“Look up to the barren heights and see.
Is there any place where you have not been ravished?
By the roadside you sat waiting for lovers,
sat like a nomad in the desert.
You have defiled the land
with your prostitution and wickedness.Therefore the showers have been withheld,
and no spring rains have fallen.
Yet you have the brazen look of a prostitute;
you refuse to blush with shame.Have you not just called to me:
‘My Father, my friend from my youth,will you always be angry?
Will your wrath continue forever?’
This is how you talk,
but you do all the evil you can.”
Here you are again with HELL preaching. I don’t know you personally, but what do you feel most informs your Christianity: informed by fear, love, awe, union, safety …?
Hi Sabio,
The crazy thing is, none of these passages are about hell. The warnings of Jeremiah were about things that eventually happened, and the warnings of Revelation are about things that may or may not have happened yet.
It’s easy to find examples of people today crying out for death and not finding it, and also of people refusing to turn back to God after any amount of punishment, but it’s hard for us to imagine everyone acting that way. I suppose if the evangelical atheists get their way, nobody will ever turn to God again, no matter how bad things get.
Actually it was the “hellish” quality of the text and a punishing deity I was referring to.
This seems a theme of yours and thus my question which you did not answer.
I work in medicine — I see people weekly who call for death and can’t get it soon enough.
I will add a question to the question list:
What is your operational definition of “turn to God”?
BTW, isn’t the wood & stone in that passage referring to statues of other gods?
FWIW, I’ve written about the relationship between fear of God and love a few times. I agree with C.S. Lewis, who said “Fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom, but it’s not the end”. Scriptures begin by telling us to fear God, but fear no evil. Scriptures end by telling us “God is Love”.
Death Cab for Cutie used the line “fear is the heart of love” in one of their songs; which I discussed here: http://lowerwisdom.com/2009/06/death-of-the-saints/
OK, that is sort of an answer for the first question: You love is fear based.
Now the second question?
I don’t think it’s accurate to say that “love is fear based”, at all. I cannot agree with that characterization. The “God is Love” passages come after God says “Fear not, for I am with you”.
Regarding the “punishing deity” part, the scriptures describe a God who punishes those he loves. When God threatens to NOT punish someone, that’s when you know things are really bad (for example, Hosea 4:14).
Regarding “wood and stone”, idolatry is one of the most central themes of the Bible, and isn’t just about little statues. The idols of those days were human-created models intended to represent the fundamental powers that shaped the human world and destiny. We still make models today, and still place faith in them.
Joshua: I am feeling a bit of difficulty is this discussion:
(1) You do realize you are quoting Bible when I am asking personal questions? I am asking about JOSHUA’s fear element in his relationship to the divine. But I think you have told us that Fear is a big part of your relationship to the divine and you feel it should be for everyone.
(2) Second question still not answered: What is your operational definition of “Turn to God”?
(3) It seems like you are being argumentative about “wood and stone”. I will repeat the simple question: Do you feel the author of that passage was referring to idols? (I don’t need the larger commentary)
2) Turning to God is a matter of a change of heart or a change of allegiance. Refusing to acknowledge that God exists, and making idols to try to rescue oneself, is a clear example of not turning to God.
3) It’s not a matter of “feeling”; the text is very clear. I don’t know anyone who would say that the passage isn’t talking about idols.
(3) Since it is idols, I contend you stretch (as any good preacher would) when you say:
“As crazy as it is, we live in a world where people say to the dust, “You gave me birth!” ”
But that is fine. Just wanted to call the foul. But preach away.
(2) So, if turning to god is a change of heart, does it have to have all the outward tribal signs. Could an atheist have a change of heart and still not feel there is a god?
2) Tribal signs, no, but I don’t know how someone could change their allegiance to God without believing that there *is* a God.
3) If it’s a stretch to talk about idols that are not statues, I guess the whole Bible is a stretch — the theme of non-statue idolatry is pervasive. I think it’s a huge mistake to say that idolatry is only about statues.
Good, so, #2 and #3 fit together for me.
Even in your theistic world there are those that believe a change of heart does not require outward allegiances or even acknowledgements. CS Lewis had a lad that crossed over in the Great Battle, much to the dismay of other Narnians.
The heart is much more complex than check lists of creeds, rituals or our own professions. In your world, I imagine God would care about the deep side, not all the sides that people easily jump at.
People can not worship alters (in all the truly heart-important ways) and still not intellectually feel there is a god. Some Christians (not your type, apparently) feel that could still be good enough — they don’t have scripture completely anaalyzed and fit together to exclude that.
Right; we can’t use outward appearances, creeds, etc. to know for sure who has truly turned to God.
The Calormene Emeth is the one who was allowed over to Aslan, despite having outwardly followed Tash: “I and Tash are of such different kinds that no service which is vile can be done to me, and none which is not vile can be done to him.” Some people claim that this is evidence of Lewis being a universalist, but I think that’s a bit extreme.
Lewis described “turning to God” in a pretty well-known passage of “Mere Christianity”: “Now what was the sort of “hole” man had gotten himself into? He had tried to set up on his own, to behave as if he belonged to himself. In other words, fallen man is not simply an imperfect creature who needs improvement: he is a rebel who must lay down his arms. “
That’s essentially what the Jews of Jeremiah’s day were punished for — for “setting up on their own”.
You will notice that all this talk of “turning to god” and “change of heart” did not involve Jesus. Or at least not in any sense of needing to hear a death and resurrection story and certainly Jeremiah didn’t have it.
I contend that even among many type of Christians all the salvation stories are secondary but incarnated love — be it Jesus or others is key.
This is something that few Christians would ever want to admit.
But you and I, Joshua, just had a whole conversation about what your God would want and it didn’t involve Jesus.
This reminds me of part of my deconversion story –> here
Interesting, you present template does not let the reader see links easily. But the last word “here” in the above comment, is linked.
Hi Sabio,
I thought I had read all of your blog posts, but I apparently missed you post about de-conversion at Wheaton. What a story! Thanks for sharing it.
Jesus apparently didn’t think that profession of belief in His resurrection was critical for salvation — Luke 16:31:
“He said to him, ‘If they do not listen to Moses and the Prophets, they will not be convinced even if someone rises from the dead.’ “
And the thief on the cross didn’t profess belief in the resurrection, but was still saved.
“Incarnated Love” is, of course, essential Christian doctrine. Perhaps you can elaborate on “be it Jesus or others”? Who gets to define what is “incarnated love”? Is that something we all get to decide for ourselves? I’ve had many lovers — which of my loves do I have the luxury of declaring instances of “love incarnate”?
You ask the right question:
“Who gets to define what is “incarnated love”?
Again, certainly not creeds, theologies, textual traditions, personality types, sects or political powers.
I guess we agree about that. In addition, I don’t think people get to define it for themselves. People are prone to confuse carnal love with love incarnate, and the two are pretty much opposite.